LOL....well said dude...one must ask oneself, in this situation, if the majority is a better judge of "GOOD SETTINGS" than the few!!
L8ter

*Proud Member of the Alliance*

Live Long And Prosper!

I can't believe I have to respond to that. If you take a new player and you give them a choice between, say, 250 turns and infinite turns, what do you think they'll choose? A game that is more challenging is more fun for the long run, but just about any player jumps at freebies. You take away the elements of strategy in the game and it's a lot of fun for about two days. So yes, the majority of players do prefer settings that make the game less appealing in the long term.

I really don't need logic to make this point. Just look at how many players prefer high-turn games, and then listen to all of the complaints about 24/7 players. You can't have it both ways.

John Pritchett
Epic Interactive Strategy

I see your point, but my statement was purely philosiphical!
Technically, in our western society, what is "Right" is determined by the majority...In this particular case, it is logical to assume that a game with good long-term settings is best for play! But the masses are NOT usually logical. just look at our wonderful democracy
L8ter

*Proud Member of the Alliance*

Live Long And Prosper!

quote:
I see your point, but my statement was purely philosiphical!
Technically, in our western society, what is "Right" is determined by the majority...In this particular case, it is logical to assume that a game with good long-term settings is best for play! But the masses are NOT usually logical. just look at our wonderful democracy
L8ter

*Proud Member of the Alliance*

Live Long And Prosper!


"I owe my constituants more than just my vote, I owe them my judgement" as said by James Madison just prior to signing the Declaration of Independance. Using your own logic, James Madison and others would not have signed the document since the majority of their constiuance was against many of the ideas in that document. They signed it because it was much better than the Articles of Confederation and, in the long run, their constituance would prosper better than there were at the time. Many of the laws in the US are not exactly popular with all. Some are not popular with the majority but not having them in place leads to problems much greater degrees than with them.

This is the message that JP is attempting to convey.



Visit slbbs.com port 2002 for a rip roaring game of TW where you also have to battle the Klingons, Romulans, Orians and the Borg.

Touche....point taken, and I agree..but I wasn't disagreeing with JP, I was merely stating an unrelated point about mass rule in general. But np, I STRONGLY believe that if these rules are not put in place, the game will go to crap. And I don't want THAT hapening.
L8ter
P.S. James who??(j/k) Im canadian dude...we did it WAY different.


*Proud Member of the Alliance*

Live Long And Prosper!

quote:
I see your point, but my statement was purely philosiphical!
Technically, in our western society, what is "Right" is determined by the majority...In this particular case, it is logical to assume that a game with good long-term settings is best for play! But the masses are NOT usually logical. just look at our wonderful democracy
L8ter


I wasn't picking up on your sarcasm. I absolutely agree This is just an example of how "what's best for you" isn't really what people want. In politics, I don't want people telling me what's best for me. But in games, rules are important.

quote:
"I owe my constituants more than just my vote, I owe them my judgement" as said by James Madison just prior to signing the Declaration of Independance. Using your own logic, James Madison and others would not have signed the document since the majority of their constiuance was against many of the ideas in that document. They signed it because it was much better than the Articles of Confederation and, in the long run, their constituance would prosper better than there were at the time. Many of the laws in the US are not exactly popular with all. Some are not popular with the majority but not having them in place leads to problems much greater degrees than with them.


There are definitely times when the majority is wrong. I'm in favor of strong, but limited government. I don't mind being told we can't use drugs, but I don't like being told to wear a helmet on a motorcycle, or a seatbelt in the car. Eventually, they'll be telling us when to go to bed As much as it seems compassionate, you can't save people from themselves. Freedom comes with responsibility.

But not in games

quote:
P.S. James who??(j/k) Im canadian dude...we did it WAY different.


Then ignore what I said about government control. There's no hope for you What is it, $60 for a carton of cigs? Now that's control.

John Pritchett
Epic Interactive Strategy

quote:
Touche....point taken, and I agree..but I wasn't disagreeing with JP, I was merely stating an unrelated point about mass rule in general. But np, I STRONGLY believe that if these rules are not put in place, the game will go to crap. And I don't want THAT hapening.
quote:

I have also noted that the majority is the quietest. For sure, in this case it's so. I see it in the gameplay as well. The Majority likes the game to last longer than one day. They enjoy the normal playing of the game without the gimmes. They enjoy the moving, trading, exploring, and many other aspects of the game. They don't enjoy entering in a game that has to be rigged by the sysop to combat the scripters. That is not a fun game to play when all you want is a few minutes of relaxation and let the world go by.

Whom do we hear the most? The Minority. They are the most, only the loudest<grin>


[quote]
L8ter
P.S. James who??(j/k) Im canadian dude...we did it WAY different.
Live Long And Prosper!


I went to Canada with some not so nice things written on my van slighting Canada. I was stopped by a cop. He issued me a citation. Even before I could move the van, all lettering also had to be done in French as well as English. I didn't know that law existed. The fine was 15,000 Canadian Dollars or $1.25 American.
(just kidding).

James Madison was one of the original Founding Fathers of the rotten Colonial revolt we call the American Revolution. He was one of the signers of the Constitution of the United States and later became one of our presidents. Nah, not real important in the US history, was he<grin>





Visit slbbs.com port 2002 for a rip roaring game of TW where you also have to battle the Klingons, Romulans, Orians and the Borg.

quote: I went to Canada with some not so nice things written on my van slighting Canada. I was stopped by a cop. He issued me a citation. Even before I could move the van, all lettering also had to be done in French as well as English. I didn't know that law existed. The fine was 15,000 Canadian Dollars or $1.25 American.
(just kidding).

Canadian Bacon....Good Movie

quote: Then ignore what I said about government control. There's no hope for you What is it, $60 for a carton of cigs? Now that's control.

Yes...being a smoker in Canada is harder than being a Jew in Nazi Germany (no offence to Jews)!! But I will say that there is NOT enough GVT control in Canada...cuz if there was, the bastard frenchies wouldn't try to backstab the rest of the bloody country! I like the American system because if Quebec was a state, then most of them would have had "accidents" before they opened their dirty mouths!

*Proud Member of the Alliance*

Live Long And Prosper!

quote:
I can't believe I have to respond to that. If you take a new player and you give them a choice between, say, 250 turns and infinite turns, what do you think they'll choose? A game that is more challenging is more fun for the long run, but just about any player jumps at freebies. You take away the elements of strategy in the game and it's a lot of fun for about two days. So yes, the majority of players do prefer settings that make the game less appealing in the long term.


Different settings are good for different situations. Lets take your example... give a newbie a choice between 250 turns and unlimited turns. This newbie comes into the game and knows hardly nothing. They have no concept of what turn management is. How long do you think they'll play if there's only 250 turns? They'll warp around in their default 3 tpw ship and in 10 minutes be out of turns with nothing to show for it. However, if you put more exerperienced players in the 250 turn game, they will know to trade that mc in for a mf and after 250 turns, they'll have some money built up, and be well on their way. You say a more challenging game is more fun, and I agree 100% with that, but different settings are challenging for different people, and as such, I don't think any 1 set of settings are "correct".

There is room to modify the settings within reason. Unlimited turns are not within reason, and I regret ever having made it available. I see your point about how difficult it is for a newbie to play a 250 turn game. The player would have to work at learning the game in order to compete in such a game. But removing the turn limit doesn't solve anything. Then they're not learning at all.

I love to play Chess. To use an analogy, it would be like saying that Chess is too hard for beginning players, so all of the pieces should be able to move like the Queen. That would make it easier to play, but then you're not playing Chess. And you're not doing the new player a favor by allowing them to play that way. It may be harder to get started, but for those who consider it worth their effort, they have more to gain from learning to play the game the RIGHT way.

John Pritchett
Epic Interactive Strategy

quote:
There is room to modify the settings within reason. Unlimited turns are not within reason, and I regret ever having made it available. I see your point about how difficult it is for a newbie to play a 250 turn game. The player would have to work at learning the game in order to compete in such a game. But removing the turn limit doesn't solve anything. Then they're not learning at all.

I love to play Chess. To use an analogy, it would be like saying that Chess is too hard for beginning players, so all of the pieces should be able to move like the Queen. That would make it easier to play, but then you're not playing Chess. And you're not doing the new player a favor by allowing them to play that way. It may be harder to get started, but for those who consider it worth their effort, they have more to gain from learning to play the game the RIGHT way.

John Pritchett
Epic Interactive Strategy


John, I limited the turns and time to the old BBS time and turns. Since I have a very fast system and bandwidth, I also slowed the response of the game down. This put the Scripters and the non scripters on even keel. More and more players are showing up and enjoying the games but the Scripters are still crying about needing more time while the no scripters seem to find that 2 hours is enough to get done what needs to be done. No, if you stare at the screen, 2 hours may not be enough for the turns but in the old BBS Scene, you had a time limit normally and played within those confines. This is what carried TW through 3 major rewrites and a couple of decades. In this game, the non scripters far outweight the scripters but guess who hear from the most complaining about things?

Sorry, you can't get 15 mil, the most powerful ship, invade Ferrengal and be the top of the heap all in the first day. You have to work at it, scheme, plan, spend your money and time wisely.

I am glad you used Chess as an example. The Last Man against Computer was different than any other time. This was the first time that the computer had a World Class Grand Master working as a Programmer. On a given day, the Programmer may even beat the Worlds Best without the computer. Now, enter the computer assistance. The fact is, it just plain wore down the Human Player while the computer was tireless. The Grand Master PRogrammer had billions of options all out of the computer and had to get them down to a basic X number and then choose the one he wanted. Then the computer would do that move. Scripting is the same thing. It's using your computer to wear down a human being. Now, take that advantage away and the scripter has some serious competition from the Experienced Non Scripters. I don't mean a years and a half either. I mean 20 years. You will find that the old hands playing style is completely different and they are rarely on top with points. But they can take out the top person at almost anytime if they wish. Power doesn't always show up on the scoreboard. The Experience Player will lose to the Scripter for awhile once the War starts but he will rebound faster and maintain the war well past the scripters capability or will to do so. When he Universe is at war, there is no free movement and each move must be well thought out. The Experienced Player can wreck the universe during the war and then clean it up afterwards.

You say that it would trash the game. If they don't do it, then it's trashed anyway. You will say that the nuetral person cannot move without going boom. There are no nuetral people in a Universe at war. Take one side or the other. Just make sure you are on the winners side. In one game, my partner and I have an agreement that when or if it comes to that, we take the other team or person out quickly. Then clean up the spacelanes. He is young and scripts a little. I am old and don't script at all. It's a good matchup. But I have capabilities (ships, planets and fighter reserves) that he isn't aware of and has no access to from before the merger. I treat Corporations as Non Aggression Treaties not "What is mine is yours and vice a versa" I hope he learns to do the same. The game is on a slow server and the Non Scripters have the advantage since we are not relying on the scripts.

This game is turning out as a very good battle coming. The W in TW still stands for War.



Visit slbbs.com port 2002 for a rip roaring game of TW where you also have to battle the Klingons, Romulans, Orians and the Borg.

quote:
Mundane tasks are one thing but using ZTM (Zero turn mapping) throws the game into an imbalance when it is specifically to avoid having to come into the nasties areas, trade, etc. storing all information on all 20k sectors without visiting them or evens scanning them all in the first day. Using the ship that is provided, to visit 20k sectors, that would require 60k to 80k of turns. This particular script is made to specifically defeat the game turns, combat, pitfalls, other players, etc.. To allow it would be unfair to the ones that actually wish to play the game. Using this script to gather all the data of the game enables other scripting to be bullet proof. I watched three players run up over 3 mil apiece in less than 2000 turns starting with the base ship. This may cause a reset of the game if any of the normal players bring it up.

Let's hope the damage is minor. The ones that depend on those scripts alone only get a better start until they are caught and told not to use them. The Better players will, sooner or later, surpass them.


I think you have the wrong impression of ZTM .. the only information that it gives you is the warps in the game not port data .. and it doesnt mark the sectors as explored either .. Exploring is still much better than ZTM .. ZTM'ing can only get you really close .. say 98% truth .. and that highly depends on the settings of the game .. I've got a old dos ztm program around here somewhere .. before windows clients were kicking about .. if you think ZTM'ing is unfair then you'll cringe at the type of scritps that some of us can think up these days ..

Regards

<<Doctor Who>>

quote:

I don't want to start a war here, nor do I want to get anyone upset over this. The way I understand ZTM is that is basically maps the universe by calculating the paths from every sector to every other sector. (There are refinements here to make it faster, but basically, that's what it is) Using the CIM to do this makes it faster since there are no ANSI codes displayed using the CIM, just raw text. However, if the CIM did not exist, I'll bet I could still map out the entire universe, without moving. It's simple enough. Type your destination sector at the command prompt and it tells you how to get there. Just cancel the autopilot every time.

If I'm understanding the logic behind this, I'll take a guess that the CIM was introduced to reduce the players time online. Less displayed on the screen, less prompts, and faster output. It's not a cheat, nor is it a bad thing. The only way to stop this is to remove autopilot from the game and I'm not so sure that would be such a good thing!


I'me not sure on why course plotting was allowed in the cim .. jp has added time delays in (same delay in cim, course plotter, or autonav) to keep ppl's ztming from dragging the server down .. I guess if someone really wanted to do it they could look at the random warp values .. try to find out how the random seed actually affects the game .. after all .. if you guess the random seed then you have 100% of the game data dont ya
..


<<Doctor Who>>

quote:
I just viewed a player that specifically requested a game like the one you were in. Not a prob. The other 5 are not going to be like that. But for the Super Scripters, let one be available.

Problem with it, no one but him plays it. The meanest game is quite busy and has limits. This one doesn't. In one day, the lone player raised over 35k of fighters, an Imperial Cruiser fully equipped and just took Ferengal. Oh did I mention the Millions of credits he has? Since this game is aproved for this type of play, it's no problem but it astounds me why anyone would even bother playing this way. He's not playing, hes scripting while watching TV or something else.

Instead of actually bringing a game like this online, maybe I should just have all potential players send me their scripting. The one with the best scripting will be declared the winner. Saves on electricity on both ends and doesn't require any effort in modding the game. Meanwhile, the rest of us will actually play the games in the other areas.



Visit slbbs.com port 2002 for a rip roaring game of TW where you also have to battle the Klingons, Romulans, Orians and the Borg.


I find some of what you say really odd .. I just cant understand you ..

Since this game is approved for this type of play?? ..
Your saying that if say I join the game .. happen to have a good day and kick Butt .. then that's not approved and I get removed?



<<Doctor Who>>

quote:
Well said dude. You opened my eyes a bit, which is good, I too hope to start my own server in the near future and Ive never seen this side of the game. Do u think it would help a server if u put in certain games for the "super scripers" and others geared more towards serious players?
I think that scripting and helpers are good on a minimal level...like u said dude, its gets boring moving 25k colos between terra and your planet manually. But scripts that allow u to leave the account running for hours to protect your home planet is just plain stupid. I myself have run into these before and find them annoying. If your gonna protect your home...figure out when your nme comes online and try and be on at the same time...otherwise, take your chances!!
Thanks for your inspring comments dhunt!!
L8ter


Common CF .. Dont jump on this.. There is no difference between a game and a game with scripts and a game with good players.. The problem that comes across .. that gives you 6 day rebangs .. are either poor edits that really allow for a 6 day win .. with a full ZTM your still looking at more than 6 days to explore all of the deadends .. and honestly .. if your that bothred by it .. you dont build in a deadend!! ..


<<Doctor Who>>