I've been exploring the idea of writing a server that bundles twxproxy and twgs, so basically, running twxproxy on the server so that all players have access to the same lightning-fast helper and scripts. I'm thinking the process would go:
1. Player connects to the server
2. The server collects user name, password, and desired game
3. The server creates a twxproxy database and starts up twxproxy
4. The server connects to twxproxy, loads the database, then connects to twgs and scripts the bit to get into the game
5. The player is then in the game with an active twxproxy instance

Advantages:
1. Every player gets access to the same scripts
2. The scripts will be lightning fast
3. Sysop can better shape the tenor of the game by adding or removing scripts
4. Existing helpers (save twxproxy perhaps) would continue to work

Thoughts?

Questions:
1. How many players/TWX instances could you possibly run on one PC without completely freezing your PC?
2. How many of these said players can all run the same script (grid/cash) without freezing your PC?
3. How do you know everyone will know/want to use the same scripts from your archieve?
4. What exactly is the point of this if I can run my own twx and my own scripts?

Don't get me wrong, sounds interesting..but a little pointless also. Maybe Im not seeing the big picture. The only way to "shape the tenor" of the game is to set rules or no rules, either way there will be people that find their way around them.

Good thought though..
-mob

Well, hard to say without testing it, but I'd guess just about as many as you want to, as it would be easy to layer in speed quotas.

The point here is to simply level the playing field and make the game more accessible. Players are free to use their own scripts, but the fastest ones are going to be the ones everyone has access to.

Let's look at a specific scenario: a player attacking another player. Since much of the fighting and fleeing is automated, it comes down to who has the fastest connection. Having the scripts on the server levels the playing field. If the attacker is using a fancy planetary attack script that can be prevented by a simple flee script, the sysop could make that flee script available for everyone, so now the attacker running the attack script on his computer would be disadvantaged.

As I see it, one of the reasons TradeWars is hard to pick up is the plethora of tools you need to know about and setup on your machine, making the learning curve steep. Also, it has a lot of bits that need to be automated to enjoy the game properly. Therefore, if everyone had automatic access to the same helper running at even higher speeds, new users would instantly have access to the most powerful tools, and advanced users get a faster game. Seems to me everyone wins.

I can tell you from experience, some scripts will bog down a machine almost instantly, especially when processing data. I'm not saying it's impossible for you to make this work with a lot of innovation, but time and money might be a very large issue. For scripts to actually be processed by the server, it would take a server with huge resources to handle it.

Ok, are we talking about speed quotas on your PC running these multiple TWX instances or server delays? Because there would be an advantage to those NOT using your PC if I could have full access and speed on my PC opposed to the quotas on yours.



Well the playing field is leveled MOST of the time as far as scripts go. Ive found it really depends on how you use them. How are the fastest ones going to be the ones on your server and not on my PC Im still a bit confused on that. Are we talking about ping time? Or CPU?



It might come down to ping when it comes to someone getting dropped or torped or something like that. But skill does have something to do with attacking/defending, there are MANY ways to kill someone using a "flee script" or to defend against an "attack script".

Again Im not bashing your idea just giving some constructive questions and cons. Don't take it personal..it does sound interesting.



Good point, I think thats what I was trying to get at. Ive had one script collecting data slow down my pc with nearly nothing else running. Can you imagine your twgs server with 10+ TWX instances going all running different scripts not to mention your background processes. If you limit speed/memory to each instance then it depends on how much memory/CPU power right?

You'll need to run a VPS w/ strict processor and memory controls. TWXproxy doesn't have those kind of user control features, which means one player would be able to see the data and scripts from another and would be able to lock up anyone at will.

"Access to the same scripts" is not a plus in my opinion, but new players might be into it. If the TWXproxy is on the same machine as TWGS you will see some funky bugs, ie: you can photon anyone, even if they're xporting out. If the players know what they're doing they could do a lot of nasty things with this, like shutting down a game within about 10 minutes.

Good or bad, from a sysops perspective, I don't know. Only way to know is to try it and see what the problems are.

Good luck.



Well, nobody flees anymore... atleast not intentionally. You can't flee from an IG, and you can't reliably xport out from a localhost photon (try it sometime). If I know my enemy is using an attack script from the game I'll just fire up a script that sucks up CPU for a spell, then go in w/ a non-native script and plaster them. IMO scripts aren't the issue, it's skill level... and you can't give people skill they don't have. You also can't overcome move delay, so the person running a localhost foton could then go in with a non-localhost script after torping them and kill them, without having to share their more advanced scripts.



Nod, but I don't really think you can give everyone similar access for long, the nature of the game is competitive... people will just write better scripts to overcome these issues. Just because you have access to the tools doesn't mean you have a clue how to use them, so newbs will still be newbs. Advanced users will want to use thier own scripts, not boxed ones. So if you lock out the server from non-local users you'll find a lack of advanced players willing to train others, meaning they die quickly on other servers.

Anyway, it's your money, your investment, it's up to you. Run the server the way you want and if people play there, great, people play there. If not, then not. From a technical perspective it's an interesting challenge.

Sounds like an interesting thought. From a SysOp perspective, just keep in mind the more instances of TWXProxy you run, the more sockets used on the machine. Although I run quite a few instances of TWXProxy for our ScoreKeeper to perform different tasks and automation functions, it can have a tendancy to suddenly no longer allow connections, at which case the machine is rebooted. This "could" be an issue to you if you are running 5+ games and 10+ nodes and lots of players online. It also will affect any outside tasks you have, like website, mail, etc.

I like your idea because in the case of our TradeWars Academy game (for beginners), it can give them an idea as to running scripts, etc. I could then code our OCSBot to give instructions on how to run a script, etc. and that helps shape this particular game to where I would like it.

Exactly. I think there are some interesting ways it could go, especially since we have the source to TWXProxy. If it could be made multi-tenant, then that solves a lot of the resource issues, and with careful review of its scripts, you could avoid exploits or badly-behaving scripts. If you provide the client as well, you could really simplify the tools necessary to play the game, making it more attractive for casual players.

The scripts would have to be near bullet proof or you will receive complaints on that. TWX would still function on the local (user's) computer as it does now and scripters would still write whatever script they wanted to use. Public scripts are available along with bots that contain scripts that essentially provide "the same scripts" to people who can't write their own or know someone who will provide a non-public script. I can't remember a game where I haven't written or tweaked a script for whatever purpose, but then that is the fun part for me - the game itself isn't the main attraction.

It sounds interesting for new users to get a grasp for the game, and I wish you luck with it.

               / Promethius / Enigma / Wolfen /

"A man who has no skills can be taught, a man who has no honor has nothing."

You know, I've been thinking about what you are trying to do here. I'm not sure exactly how you would do it, but just to throw something at you that you might consider. There are a lot of games on the internet that you need to download and install their software to be able to play online. What if a sysop redirected the player to a website and auto installed twx onto thier computer and set up twx to connect to your server? Auto install, auto configuration for twx might be a simpler route to go.

That is interesting, but the OP's idea of having everyone only having access to the same scripts would be difficult to achieve, but doable. There would need to be a custom mod to the TWX being installed, that would only allow certain scripts to run (ie compiled scripts with some kind of authorization code in them).

These are not facts, but merely my opinions and observations.

I postulate that TradeWars was designed and enjoyed as a casual game in its heyday, and that one of the contributing factors to its decline is that it can no longer be enjoyed casually.

In order for TW to ever exist again as a casually played and enjoyed game, there has to be a way to regulate or eliminate the use of scripts. What Don has outlined is one way to provide sysops the option of hosting a server where script use is fully regulated, possibly eliminated. I expect that most people don’t want to go back to pencil and paper for data harvesting, or playing every colonizing or PPT’ing turn by hand, so there is a use for utility scripts that do not attack or defend, but merely save repetitious keystrokes. And while I realize that this might not appeal to the 33 active TW players and 6 active script writers who don’t play, I expect that it will appeal to many retired and new players who just want to enjoy a casual game, who don’t want to invest months learning how to play the game as it exists now.

I confess to you that I’ve never convinced one real-life friend to log in to a telnet session and play a game of TradeWars. But imagine if they could download a client or <gasp> open a browser, launch a basic explore-trade script, and ease into the community and strategy that are really TW’s biggest appeals. Can you see where that might attract a new player base?

+EP+

Shrug. Maybe. Only way to find out is to spend the time and money, do it, and see if it works out. That's not exactly something the software fairy's going to come by and deliver, so you'd need to homebrew a solution for that. Of course all of that might attract a group of players that hack the client to work w/ scripts... so no guarantees.

IMO the reason the game isn't active has nothing to do with scripts or special servers, magic graphics or whatever. But rather JP does nothing to pull in new players, most of the forums aren't even indexed correctly in search engines (leading to ppl getting lost when they come back) and the simple fact that there's a lot more competition in the MMORPG world than there was when the game came out.

If we were so motivated as to advertise we could pull in new and returning players. Once a critical mass is achieved training games would be economical, as it stands now it's not even economical to run a server for long. But that'll never effectively come from the community, so it'll never get done.

Even if we were pulling in new players, very few would endure the time that it takes to become competitive. I think brining in new players is a great idea, but there needs to be a hedge against our highly evolved scripts or they'll never survive and see what makes the game fun.

I dunno. I run into new players all the time that want to learn and stick around. Usually it's after getting trounced, then they start asking questions. I always try to get their ICQ. Some ppl are lazy and don't feel like learning, I don't think scripts really matter much in that arena, nothing can help ppl that don't want to learn.

I guess what I'm saying... yea there's some ppl that like the old-style play, that's great, find a game like that and play it. If you guys want to develop a system that somehow locks out scripts, well, ok then (good luck tho, the competitive edge gained in breaking that system would be huge). But I don't think that matters when it comes to players sticking around, there will always be a competitive edge to the game... and always be ppl that can't handle that. Then there will be ppl that can, regardless of scripts.

Like I've always said, if you're new to the game the best skill you can learn is how to select games intelligently. Pick slow games that don't have a lot of aggressive players so you can get time to learn.

In the end I don't think any of this will matter in keeping players. TW doesn't advertise and does nothing to fight the MMORPG wars, we shouldn't expect much. Heck, we actively chase away players by making these forums difficult to find and index (we should be running an SEO mod, at the very least). This forum isn't even in the top 10 for google's "Tradewars 2002" entry. The irony? My site is on page 3 (and I've done no optimization at all, and have only a fraction of the pages), this site is on page 4.