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 SWATH scripts since 2003 
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Unread post Re: SWATH scripts since 2003
Looking at the TWX script API, I don't see much that SWATH can't do. There is one big difference I noticed, and I think it's what you're getting at: TWX exposes the internals of its breadth-first searches, which would make it a lot faster to plot many courses from one sector, and possibly faster and more flexible in searching for the nearest sector matching some criteria. Then again, SWATH has the Tools.SectorSearchParameter thing, which I've never really used. It looks like it might cover the uses of TWX's list of nearest warps.

What's bugging me right now is that SWATH's scripting seems kind of buggy, and I can't tell if it's actually buggy or it's just because I'm running it on WINE. In particular, UserDefinedCommand.onText(...) never sees anything...


Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:50 pm
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Unread post Re: SWATH scripts since 2003
It's a little more complicated than that. But I know where you are, I've been there too (2005, or so). A lot of ppl have gone down the "let's do swath cuz it's java and I like java" route, only to end up doing twxproxy. It's just one of those things you have to experience.

The problem isn't capability, it's scale. Yes, you can do it in swath, but it'll take you 10x longer and it'll never be as fast.

Today, the most useful scripts are bot module compatible. That means you can turn the entire script into a meta function, layering capabilities and allowing control via corpies.

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Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:57 pm
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Unread post Re: SWATH scripts since 2003
Yeah, I used to write scripts exclusively for SWATH (as Lonestar so graciously brought up) but Java is written for all application implementations. TWX scripting is aimed directly at the problems encountered when writing Tradewars scripts and therefore a lot of the problems you would need to write in Java come right out of the box with TWX. You can send bursts and make a script comparable to any TWX script, but like Sing said it would take much longer. You definitely get more bang from your buck looking at TWX scripting.

MD


Sun Jul 24, 2011 10:39 pm
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Unread post Re: SWATH scripts since 2003
I'll keep that in mind. But if anything's missing from SWATH, I still only need to write it once, and then call it from other scripts.

MD, you've written UserDefinedDaemons, right? Is there a bug that prevents their onText(...) method ever being called? I did call enableIncomingText() in my initDaemon().


Sun Jul 24, 2011 11:58 pm
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Unread post Re: SWATH scripts since 2003
Well.

Nothing wrong with having multiple options I spose.... 8)

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Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:32 pm
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Unread post Re: SWATH scripts since 2003
kjkrum wrote:
MD, you've written UserDefinedDaemons, right? Is there a bug that prevents their onText(...) method ever being called? I did call enableIncomingText() in my initDaemon().



I just looked quickly at the API again, and I can't say I remember having any problems with that. Of course I may have blocked it out.

I wish I had the source for the daemons was out there. I didn't realize it was missing.

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Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:44 am
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Unread post Re: SWATH scripts since 2003
Back in 2006/2007 I went all out with Swath scripting and had my own BOT type setup before I even saw what you all had with TWX. I eventually switched to a hybrid using some of my Swath scripts, but opting for twx scripts for anything combat/speed related. Although I had some success using java for logic choices, then firing off dynamic macros to do fighting for me as well.

The best thing I was able to do with java was in a long running build game. I built out a swath defense script that periodically checked/listened on a local port for commands from a web page (using WAP - accessible by my pre-android, pre-iphone cell phone). I could issue commands like begin trading run, add figs to orbit(from planet), switch to next strongest ship, begin photon watch mode, etc. The Swath script emailed my phone when my sectors were being attacked. That was the most fun I had playing tradewars, bar none.

I have been thinking about retro-fitting a bunch of that code into an Android app (my latest favorite platform to toy with). Just a general listener app that could be setup to call any script type (Swath, TWX, ZOC - maybe a check that is run by mombot, anybot once in a while) would be a cool thing. If you are out on a Friday at the pub and you get a warning that your front sector was hit, you could choose how to respond, etc. I am finishing up a totally unrelated Android app right now (my first) and then I might see what I can do for TW.

I throw all this out there just to encourage everyone to think how all of these platforms can work in a cohesive way, rather than abandoning all just to stick with one.

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Last edited by maidenariana on Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:33 pm
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Unread post Re: SWATH scripts since 2003
AND THIS IS THE VERY REASON I LEFT THE LAST TIME!

I got a great idea! Lets make a script that can build, kill, colonize and protect all while I'm in the damned bathtub! All I gotta do is make sure the 'puter has power and it's turned on... WAIT! I bet I can install a solar panel so I can let the thing run connected via a Microsoft/Hughes satellite while I'm running naked around in the freakin desert!

All kidding aside, games are meant to be played by people at people speeds. When you do this kind of thing (and kudos for being one of the 10 people on the planet smart enough to actually pull it off) you destroy any chance of the regular Joe, like myself, of ever being even remotely competitive.

As Cruncher would say "DOWN WITH AFK KILL SCRIPTS!"

PS, If you do come to my TWGS with that crap, You won't last 10 minutes past the login stage.....

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Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:42 pm
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Unread post Re: SWATH scripts since 2003
I for one would enjoy having an Android Tablet (preferably) or Phone app for a few basic things.
Fed Chat
SubSpace Chat
Send PM's
Run Colies (scripted)
PPT (scripted)

Downfall is the soft keyboard takes up half the screen, I know I could use a regular keyboard but then I am back to using a laptop. But having the ability to log in and do some trivial tasks could be handy in an emergency situation since I always have my phone or tablet near me. :)

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Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:50 pm
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Unread post Re: SWATH scripts since 2003
Master Blaster wrote:
AND THIS IS THE VERY REASON I LEFT THE LAST TIME!

I got a great idea! Lets make a script that can build, kill, colonize and protect all while I'm in the damned bathtub! All I gotta do is make sure the 'puter has power and it's turned on... WAIT! I bet I can install a solar panel so I can let the thing run connected via a Microsoft/Hughes satellite while I'm running naked around in the freakin desert!

All kidding aside, games are meant to be played by people at people speeds. When you do this kind of thing (and kudos for being one of the 10 people on the planet smart enough to actually pull it off) you destroy any chance of the regular Joe, like myself, of ever being even remotely competitive.

As Cruncher would say "DOWN WITH AFK KILL SCRIPTS!"

PS, If you do come to my TWGS with that crap, You won't last 10 minutes past the login stage.....



You give me too much credit - and mis-understand I think what it was actually doing. It was more of a "Danger! Danger! Will Robinson" kind of notice, with limited response capability. A player at the keys still had the advantage by far. It was more of a way for me to know I needed to get to the keys ASAP. The real benefit was being able to remotely switch "modes" once in a while to recover from an attack by moving figs around or getting into a better ship because I was almost killed, etc. Photon watch and planet "lift, attack, attack, land, grab figs, lift attack, attack, land" scripts don't hold out for very long on their own.

While it might not be your cup of tea, I think it was LoneStar that fought against my script with me running to the keys for about 2 weeks and said he had a blast eventually beating me. Again this was a known building game where scripts were not discouraged. He could tell you about the battle I had just trying to get back into the game when he was running a bot watching for me re-entering. It took several days and a custom script just to get back in.

And no need for a solar panel, just a good UPS system ;-) I kid I keeeed!

{Edit} - and I just want to add Master Blaster, that while I love coding, I typically play the classic or building games because my taste in games is more like yours than you realize. I love the classic game and would enjoy playing even just via telnet if there were games out there with no scripts running. The idea of playing a tradewars match that is over in a few days or even a couple of weeks because scripting and an elite 5 player team won the day has very little appeal to me. Furthermore, I hate playing in games with massive fighter grids. I like games like on ICE9 where the sysop keeps the universe relatively clear of that crap so the game can actually be played. I am an ally sir, not your enemy :)

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Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:11 pm
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Unread post Re: SWATH scripts since 2003
rgorion wrote:
Master Blaster wrote:
AND THIS IS THE VERY REASON I LEFT THE LAST TIME!


Master Blaster wrote:
As Cruncher would say "DOWN WITH AFK KILL SCRIPTS!"

PS, If you do come to my TWGS with that crap, You won't last 10 minutes past the login stage.....



{Edit} - and I just want to add Master Blaster, that while I love coding, I typically play the classic or building games because my taste in games is more like yours than you realize. I love the classic game and would enjoy playing even just via telnet if there were games out there with no scripts running. The idea of playing a tradewars match that is over in a few days or even a couple of weeks because scripting and an elite 5 player team won the day has very little appeal to me. Furthermore, I hate playing in games with massive fighter grids. I like games like on ICE9 where the sysop keeps the universe relatively clear of that crap so the game can actually be played. I am an ally sir, not your enemy :)


If you truely want a classic game, I invite you and Master Blaster to play mine. I think I'm getting very close to having the settings tweeked so the game is enjoyable and not boring. No truces, no FPS, and MBBS mode without Mega Rob!

I went head to head with Comet and manually I was able to display the sector and power up weapons before he toasted me. Imagine how much fun it would have been had I just hit Alt-A. Seriously, you can do whatever the game allows, except bugs, dupes and pdrops. (I doubt you could pdrop if you tried anyhow.)

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Tue Aug 16, 2011 4:55 pm
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Unread post Re: SWATH scripts since 2003
rgorion wrote:
Master Blaster wrote:
AND THIS IS THE VERY REASON I LEFT THE LAST TIME!

I got a great idea! Lets make a script that can build, kill, colonize and protect all while I'm in the damned bathtub! All I gotta do is make sure the 'puter has power and it's turned on... WAIT! I bet I can install a solar panel so I can let the thing run connected via a Microsoft/Hughes satellite while I'm running naked around in the freakin desert!

All kidding aside, games are meant to be played by people at people speeds. When you do this kind of thing (and kudos for being one of the 10 people on the planet smart enough to actually pull it off) you destroy any chance of the regular Joe, like myself, of ever being even remotely competitive.

As Cruncher would say "DOWN WITH AFK KILL SCRIPTS!"

PS, If you do come to my TWGS with that crap, You won't last 10 minutes past the login stage.....



You give me too much credit - and mis-understand I think what it was actually doing. It was more of a "Danger! Danger! Will Robinson" kind of notice, with limited response capability. A player at the keys still had the advantage by far. It was more of a way for me to know I needed to get to the keys ASAP. The real benefit was being able to remotely switch "modes" once in a while to recover from an attack by moving figs around or getting into a better ship because I was almost killed, etc. Photon watch and planet "lift, attack, attack, land, grab figs, lift attack, attack, land" scripts don't hold out for very long on their own.

While it might not be your cup of tea, I think it was LoneStar that fought against my script with me running to the keys for about 2 weeks and said he had a blast eventually beating me. Again this was a known building game where scripts were not discouraged. He could tell you about the battle I had just trying to get back into the game when he was running a bot watching for me re-entering. It took several days and a custom script just to get back in.

And no need for a solar panel, just a good UPS system ;-) I kid I keeeed!

{Edit} - and I just want to add Master Blaster, that while I love coding, I typically play the classic or building games because my taste in games is more like yours than you realize. I love the classic game and would enjoy playing even just via telnet if there were games out there with no scripts running. The idea of playing a tradewars match that is over in a few days or even a couple of weeks because scripting and an elite 5 player team won the day has very little appeal to me. Furthermore, I hate playing in games with massive fighter grids. I like games like on ICE9 where the sysop keeps the universe relatively clear of that crap so the game can actually be played. I am an ally sir, not your enemy :)


Ok, I digress and invite you to do as you say and be an ally to the idea of minimalist script playing.

Don't get me wrong, I am a fan of scripting for many different (and completely boring) game play requirements. Having said that, I also understand that there are those that excel at creating scripts and want to see just how far they can get with it in a Twar game.

Maybe there's room for both types of players.

I have a very nice Windows 2003 server (that I own now, free and clear) hooked up to a very nice commercial grade 5mbit (up and down) connection that regularly sees ping rates in the teens. I also have a fully regged TWGS and am quite sure I could get 100 nodes online at the same time and still be reasonably playable. Maybe (and don't tell anyone I said this), I could set up a couple unlim games with the ping settings adjusted to give the scripters the advantage and just let you guys tear it up.

Maybe, that is, If you script babies will agree to NOT come into one of my old guy games and beat the livin crap outa me... (wink)

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Tue Aug 16, 2011 6:30 pm
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Unread post Re: SWATH scripts since 2003
Cruncher and MB - any chance any of those games are banging soon?

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Wed Aug 17, 2011 10:47 am
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Unread post Re: SWATH scripts since 2003
rgorion wrote:
I could issue commands like begin trading run, add figs to orbit(from planet), switch to next strongest ship, begin photon watch mode, etc. The Swath script emailed my phone when my sectors were being attacked. That was the most fun I had playing tradewars, bar none.


That's pretty baller. :D

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Wed Aug 17, 2011 2:44 pm
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Unread post Re: SWATH scripts since 2003
I see both sides to this. I love scripting myself, and I think scripting is actually the reason TW has survived; it's one of the few competitive online games that is scriptable in any way. In most games, any kind of automation is considered cheating. It's the allure to programmers that keep the helpers updated, and the helpers keep interest in the game alive.

Another reason scripting is great is that it gets people interested in programming. I became a computer geek because of TW2002, and I'm sure many others can say the same. Script writing is a great way to get your feet wet. (And this is why I shun TWX scripting... I feel like learning that language would rot people's brains worse than BASIC.)

But I also enjoy human competition. As I wrote on my blog recently, the engineers who designed Deep Blue were probably great chess players; they would have had to be to know how to design it. But they weren't playing chess when they beat Garry Kasparov.

I've been thinking a lot about how TW could be made harder for scripts, especially at a higher, strategic level. There are games that are much harder than chess for computers to play, including the ancient game of Go. And there's a modern game called Arimaa that was purposefully designed to be difficult for computers, but simple for humans. I don't have any great solutions for TW yet, but I'd be interested in discussing everyone's ideas.

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