This is in regaurds to http://www.classictw.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=20627 (I didn't want to be off topic of the day man).

Ok so I can understand if you wanted to play an ole school no scripts game, but whats the big deal with m()m bot? I can understand if you are getting to the point of only 1 person at the keys controling everyone else on the corp, but if players are using the bot just as ANY other script out there what are the complaints??

Ive seen 1-2 other bots out there that are a bit older but still in essence do the same thing. Is it just m()m bot or the people using it?

Wildstar's opinions on bot use found here (geez mob, do some looking!) http://www.classictw.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=20041&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=bot

Basically:


I've heard this arguement before, usually from solo players. Playing on a corp means coming up with strategies to deal with real life. A bot is an excellent way of going afk in relative safety. The position above demands players to be at the keys anytime they play. I can appreciate the opinion, just not practical on a long term basis. I'll just fall back on the 'if the game allows it, it's not cheating."

I personally dislike the mombot since it's not open source, and I like to tinker. The ST-109 that was started by I believe Oz is also a public script, that is .ts for us tinkerers... Available at grimy's in manifest destiny pack.

I think bots can be abused to the point of the player being controlled is basically not getting/having to do anything other than maintain a connection to the game. Controlling another player, IMHO, is basically allowing the "controller" additional turns in a turn game and you are not seeing the "controlled" player's ability to play the game (even if he would run the same scripts at the same time).

To put it another way, what is the difference in a solo player duping in 4 clones to be controlled by a bot? It all depends on the abuse of the bot being used, and many times an experienced player abuses the non-experienced players moves to accomplish something. Part of the game is being "at keys" to play the turns, if someone can't be at keys, then that is to their corp's detriment - that is life, get a different corpie.

I know bots are popular, but I fail to see the difference in someone duping in players to be controlled by bots, and someone logging in only to be controlled by a bot.

               / Promethius / Enigma / Wolfen /

"A man who has no skills can be taught, a man who has no honor has nothing."

I can agree with you if people are just showing up to be played by another through their bot. Yet thats only one aspect of it, just cause you use a bot doesn't mean your not an equally experienced player as someone who is using TWX + SWATH + Scripts. But to say you don't want to play against anyone who is using m()m bot, you minus well say you don't want to play anyone using certain scripts...

If your wanting to play this game and become an experienced player then you need to be at the keys. Yes we ALL have cashing scripts that you need to monitor or, a colo script, etc... THAT doesn't mean that you can win a game with m()m bot anymore then the person running their own stand alone scripts. THE only part about it that would seem unfair is if someone logged in JUST so someone else can play their spot.

I guess the way I took the comments in the other thread was that they didn't like to play against anyone using m()m, but didn't elaborate about why. I assumed that they meant m()m gave the other player an advantage, and as a m()m user I don't see how that differs from using any other "helper" or script. *shrug*

No offense to how where or against whom they like to play, thats just my stance on it.\

Hi guys.

Like I said before. I will not go into a game and whine about it. It is just my opinion. Those who use it can use it as I use ore whore.

My only problem is that there is a difference between someone running save me and someone being on remote control.

It is just my opinion and would never ever try and force it on anyone or complain others are using it. That is not my intention.

In my opinion, being on full remote control takes away a certian feel to the game because one tactic is to get people afk or offline. But with the bot running, 1 guy can run a corp and it just takes something away.

These opinions are mine and mine alone lol.

Sorry for the rambling.

Laff, and how about programs like logmein where you can control the user via interface? lol. There's a fine line between them all.

My take on bots is this: Bots don't win games, people do. If all you have is a corp of bots, what good is that?

I have to agree with you on the problem of someone just controlling another computer. I guess part of the question should be, who are you playing against? A solo player botting a group of other players who do not do anything or what? I still fail to see the difference in botting other players or botting dupes, other than the dupes are generally from the same IP and the players generally log on from a different IP. (Generally on the IP for dupes as I can log several dupes from different IP addresses if that was my style).

If someone can explain the difference in botting a players turns away vs botting a dupes turns away, I would appreciate it.

               / Promethius / Enigma / Wolfen /

"A man who has no skills can be taught, a man who has no honor has nothing."

The way it is now... you have 2 corps full of players, the CEO on one corp bots their players, the CEO on the other corp bots theirs. It's botwars.

I think a lot of it has to go w/ how they're used. If you're an active player that just wants to step away from the computer for an hour or 2... bots rock. I love bots in that circumstance, page me if needed, whatever. But when you've got a bunch of new players and an aggressive game you've got some risk... either let them die, or turn on a bot and go away. It's tempting to tell players to go bot so you can atleast use their turns for cashing, but the downside is those players never learn to do anything else.

At some point you get into this habit of being one guy controlling bots if you're not careful. At that point you don't get any external feedback and your corpies aren't going to enjoy the game. At that point it's just glorified duping.

I don't see how you could ban one instance without the other, I just wish more people spent time training players before big games. I always tried to, but most never showed enough interest.

I said nothing about a no script game. I did say that there are some people that don't use M()Mbot and don't want to use it. I don't care what other people use. I just prefer to not use it. I imagine that it helps other players a lot. The newer players don't know anything else to use. I use sing's, cherokee's, wildstar's, lonestar's and rammar's public stuff.

I am just about done with public scripts they aren't exactly what I want anymore and I end up writing macros and small one-off scripts to do the stuff I need to do.

I appreciate all of the work you guys have put into them. Thanks again

Cerne

True on the "bot wars" issue and the competiveness of players wanting to win regardless of tactics used. We have seen tactics that have "ruined" games based on the win at all costs mentality (ship / planet buyouts most recently, and yes the game allows it). The use of bots by a CEO to control players and burn their turns AFK ruins it for those who had their turns burned up (they can't do anything but talk on fed/ss).

I've played against corps where players are AFK and the player gridding bots the other player to start saveme and a cit killer - while there are only two of us at keys, I would still be effectively fighting two players. The player gridding isn't brave enough to run w/o backup against a solo player.

               / Promethius / Enigma / Wolfen /

"A man who has no skills can be taught, a man who has no honor has nothing."

Problem with that is every time you find a way to stop something, someone will find a way to beat it. Such as a sub channel switch command built into the bot, or encoded bot commands.
One sure fire way to make a bot useless is to have more solo player games.

But that's a whole different style of play. Some of us (namely me) hate solo games. The fun of the game is the social aspect. In that sense having corpmate coordination is fun, it adds to the game.

What I hate is turning a corp game into an effective solo game by way of bots. I've had those games, they're not fun (at all).



I do that all the time, I fail to see the problem. Corpie has to go afk for a bit, another needs to grid. So we grid while they run saveme and citkilla. Usually someone tries to stop you and the citkilla pegs them... the guy gets back to keys and we all laff at his great kill. I don't think dumbing down the process is the right approach, I think maybe the solo players should learn to play w/ a corp instead... at least if they want to compete against other coordinated corps. It's not like a coordinate opposition can't beat these techniques.

IMO the issue isn't using bots to make a corp out of a single player (expanding solo play), but rather reducing an effective corp down to a single player (reducing corp play).

"IMO the issue isn't using bots to make a corp out of a single player (expanding solo play)"
What you discribed isn't expanding solo play, it's just plain duping, and to me that is an issue.

"reducing an effective corp down to a single player (reducing corp play)"
If one player out of a corp of 5 is all that is at the keys at the time, it's not corp play. A good corp has everyone at the keys as much as possible, and each runs his OWN turns as much as possible.

My problem isn't so much with bots, but with auto relog scripts. If a player just wants to step away from the keys for a bit, it's not going to kill the corp if he gets disconnected for a few minutes until he gets back to the keys.

Well, it's not really duping. It has some elements of it, but that's life.



Right, in that case it's not really corp play. Which is exactly what I said... lol.



Sure it can. What if you get dropped offline while pgridding or defending a base? Or even gridding? Happens often enough.

I agree to an extent, if we are on a corp and I get up to go get a drink or throw some cothes in the drier I fail to see the prob with one of my corps to turn on saveme or citkilla if I was going to do it anyways when I got back. Doesn't matter if I started it before or after I sat back down 10min later, or whether he started it cause he is a bit impatient.

As far as being in a corp game, and being brave enough to play solo isn't really a fair statement. Now if someone was playing a solo game and didn't have the skill so let another player in the same game (lets say they even planned it) would not be considered brave and would IMO be cheating. If someone is running saveme whether they are home or a corp member starts it for them its running as a script not as a bot.

When someone is playin by themselves cause their corpies aren't even online/at the keys would take some away from playing a corp game. Basically using the other corpies as dupes, it depends IMO on what actions are being filled by the players bot. It all comes down to opinions and other players way to play.

We all need to remember its just a game, here to have fun right??