quote:
I agree to a point. If I understand correctly, and I just verified this, if you have visited a port already and use CIM to get a port report, it will show you the CURRENT product levels. Not what they were last at when you last visited. This, IMHO, give a distinct advantage to script users (and those who know what they're looking at) ... I've been playing with SWATH lately, and since CIM gives the current info, I can jump in at any time, run that port report, and then determine exactly what ports I want to hit to get the most buckage for my turns...

Now, unless we're assuming that you suddenly have some sort of link with every port you've visited in the game, I don't think this info should be there. I can also see problems with changing it, though. For instance, if it were changed to view the last product levels of the player, then that could be a significant space issue on the server, not to mention the processing power needed to find and display that info for the user. My suggestion is to change it so, yes, there is a port report, but no, it does not show the product levels. I think it should only show the type of port. Let the helpers do the rest if a user wants to use one. The helper can calculate what the port *should* be at if noone has been there trading lately. That, in itself, would make the game that much more of a challenge to play.

And, of course, it can always be changed to be a configurable option... Does the sysop want this available? Maybe for newbie games...

And as for ZTM, see my previous argument. Even without CIM, I can still map everything with computer option F (Course Plotter) The alternative here is to remove that as well. Then you'd have to actually visit every sector to map out the universe...


Okay .. for some reason I can PARTIALLY understand what you mean about ports .. PARTIALLY ..
----Now----
.. lets get rid of grimy .. cause if you cant see ports he cant see ports .. also when you want to goto sector 5000 .. you cant just type in 5000 anymore .. why .. cause it's not adjacent! .. you can only visit adjacent sectors! .. why? .. cause if you type in 5000 and it tells you a path then you'll get warp info!! .. Cheating
and when you are in a sector with a port .. you cant get a port report from it .. why .. you need to dock on it first ..

It sounds to me like maybee some of you guys actually dont want to play tradewars and you just dont know it!


<<Doctor Who>>

quote:
I can't believe I have to respond to that. If you take a new player and you give them a choice between, say, 250 turns and infinite turns, what do you think they'll choose? A game that is more challenging is more fun for the long run, but just about any player jumps at freebies. You take away the elements of strategy in the game and it's a lot of fun for about two days. So yes, the majority of players do prefer settings that make the game less appealing in the long term.

I really don't need logic to make this point. Just look at how many players prefer high-turn games, and then listen to all of the complaints about 24/7 players. You can't have it both ways.


I dont think this is the case JP .. I like 650-800 turns .. will play 1500-2k if asked but NEVER anything over that and i will never seek out a game like that .. I find that the 800-1200 turn games seem to be the most appealing to the non newbee community .. I think that newbee's will go for high/unlimited turns and after getting a grasp on how the game works and what they should do .. they'll move down to lower turn games .. full 24-7 bots are fine I think .. If your silly enough to run a bot while your afk then anything that the bot does is your fault .. I think that the game moving to 24 hour bots is something that seperates this game currently from other rpg games out there .. One day it would be nice to see the game try and maintain the characters while we are offline .. AI players .. but hey .. that's just my thought on it ..


<<Doctor Who>>

quote:

I find some of what you say really odd .. I just cant understand you ..

Since this game is approved for this type of play?? ..
Your saying that if say I join the game .. happen to have a good day and kick Butt .. then that's not approved and I get removed?



>


The problem is, these same folks get into the other games as well and can't fathom why this behavior disrupts the normal games. No matter what the "Rule" are, they still attempt to operate the same way until they are the only ones left in the game.

I never stated that I would remove you from any game, now did I. I would remove you for going outside the turn parameters. If you have a very good day, then you have a good day. If you have a rediculous day, it's a bit hard to say that you stayed inside the game parameters whether caught running your super script or not. The Super Scripters are under the impression they have to be caught "Red Handed". 30 mil credits and 35k fighters all on the first day without the help of some scripting well outside the game parameters? Physics and Math come into play here. Let's include Probabilities while we are at it. In otherwords, it just won't add up.

I stay completely out two of the games and just let them run. Let the scripters get so powerful that they just stop playing. I see very little good playing in either of those games. In the real world, when a 3rd world country starts getting too powerful, the neighbors usually put a stop to it fast before they become a threat. In the TW games of now, the W stands for Wimp instead of War. This isn't a game setting problem but a problem of many believing that thier style is the best, they are the best and their scripting is the best. Enter a game regardless of size with older, more experience players. Those players know that they must take this power out before they get too strong. When they do, the person that was taken out usually complains, crys and says everyone including the Sysop is cheating and then stops playing that game. The Experienced Players play the cards they are dealt without complaining.

I am stating that there is nothing really wrong with the game. It's with the players. Many haven't learned how to actually play the game and need to be shown by the experienced players how to play without scripting. A team of Non Scripters can usually take out the scripters if it's done early on. The Non Scriper, since they also have built, can sustain the attacks far longer than the scripter who builds nothing. You deprived the scripter of the superships, the bank accounts, the fighter drops, etc. and set traps for them. In the very short end, they can't sustain and start griping instead of learning to play.

The point here is, why cater to the gripers and poor players that do nothing but disrupt the game for others. Fill the loopholes in the game that they cherish so much. Then, if they wish to play, they will have to learn how.

I noticed in one of your postings that you like a much smaller game than these I speak of. So do I. When your neighbor is breathing down your neck, you had better prepare. Much like real life.



Visit slbbs.com port 2002 for a rip roaring game of TW where you also have to battle the Klingons, Romulans, Orians and the Borg.

quote:
The problem is, these same folks get into the other games as well and can't fathom why this behavior disrupts the normal games.


I've never seen or played a "normal" game then ..

quote:
I never stated that I would remove you from any game, now did I. I would remove you for going outside the turn parameters. If you have a very good day, then you have a good day. If you have a rediculous day, it's a bit hard to say that you stayed inside the game parameters whether caught running your super script or not. The Super Scripters are under the impression they have to be caught "Red Handed". 30 mil credits and 35k fighters all on the first day without the help of some scripting well outside the game parameters?


If you have a 5 man corp log into a game like this with 600 turns I dont see why it would be impossible .. it's only 35 mil creds that your talking about .. 5 reds 1k turns with noone online.. possible for day one.. ztming will not alter the max value that you can or can not earn ..

quote:
Physics and Math come into play here. Let's include Probabilities while we are at it. In otherwords, it just won't add up.

I stay completely out two of the games and just let them run. Let the scripters get so powerful that they just stop playing. I see very little good playing in either of those games. In the real world, when a 3rd world country starts getting too powerful, the neighbors usually put a stop to it fast before they become a threat. In the TW games of now, the W stands for Wimp instead of War. This isn't a game setting problem but a problem of many believing that thier style is the best, they are the best and their scripting is the best. Enter a game regardless of size with older, more experience players. Those players know that they must take this power out before they get too strong. When they do, the person that was taken out usually complains, crys and says everyone including the Sysop is cheating and then stops playing that game. The Experienced Players play the cards they are dealt without complaining.

I am stating that there is nothing really wrong with the game. It's with the players. Many haven't learned how to actually play the game and need to be shown by the experienced players how to play without scripting. A team of Non Scripters can usually take out the scripters if it's done early on. The Non Scriper, since they also have built, can sustain the attacks far longer than the scripter who builds nothing. You deprived the scripter of the superships, the bank accounts, the fighter drops, etc. and set traps for them. In the very short end, they can't sustain and start griping instead of learning to play.

The point here is, why cater to the gripers and poor players that do nothing but disrupt the game for others. Fill the loopholes in the game that they cherish so much. Then, if they wish to play, they will have to learn how.


I would like to know what you call a super script? .. what are they .. unlimited turn games have the only type of scripts that could be considered super scripts ..
SDT, SST, SSF, SDF, RTR, PPT, Colonizing, BuyDumping, are your players allowed to script these things? or must they be done by hand also .. do YOU Personally do ALL of this by hand? ..

quote:

I noticed in one of your postings that you like a much smaller game than these I speak of. So do I. When your neighbor is breathing down your neck, you had better prepare. Much like real life.



I like these games yep .. If you care to play against me then feel free to let me know .. I dont use super scripts .. but I have a feeling that you've not played against current players in the game of tradewars .. Scripting be it ppt or otherwise meets our style .. why should we do such task by hand .. If you tell me I MUST ppt by hand i'll do it with a calculator and still get my best price .. It will just waste more of my time and tie up a node on the server .. but feel free to challange me ..

Regards

<<Doctor Who>>

quote:
There is room to modify the settings within reason. Unlimited turns are not within reason, and I regret ever having made it available. I see your point about how difficult it is for a newbie to play a 250 turn game. The player would have to work at learning the game in order to compete in such a game. But removing the turn limit doesn't solve anything. Then they're not learning at all.

I love to play Chess. To use an analogy, it would be like saying that Chess is too hard for beginning players, so all of the pieces should be able to move like the Queen. That would make it easier to play, but then you're not playing Chess. And you're not doing the new player a favor by allowing them to play that way. It may be harder to get started, but for those who consider it worth their effort, they have more to gain from learning to play the game the RIGHT way.

John Pritchett
Epic Interactive Strategy


My personal preferences towards unlimited turn games match yours almost exactly. I have never played for more than a few minutes in one without getting bored. I just don't find them challenging. My point though is that just because you or I don't like a specific settings doesn't mean others don't. My son, for example, plays mostly unlimited turn games, because that's what he finds most fun. He plays unlimited games that last months. In fact, if there weren't the unlimited turn games, he probably wouldn't be playing at all.

Away from just the turns, there is a lot of flexibility, customization available, and I personally really like that. Some times it's fun to play a game where I can go around Stardock doing stuff and not have to worry about getting hit by a photon, where other times I like the challenge of having to beat the people trying to hit me. Some times I like flying around in a ship with 4:1 offensive odds. It makes defense less important. Sometimes I want more normal odds, it makes defense more important.

My point is that different people like different settings for different games. Changing something might make it more enjoyable for one person, but at the same time, it can easily make it less enjoyable for another. By having the flexabilty to enable or disable something, both people can be made happy in the game they choose to play.

quote:

I like these games yep .. If you care to play against me then feel free to let me know .. I dont use super scripts .. but I have a feeling that you've not played against current players in the game of tradewars .. Scripting be it ppt or otherwise meets our style .. why should we do such task by hand .. If you tell me I MUST ppt by hand i'll do it with a calculator and still get my best price .. It will just waste more of my time and tie up a node on the server .. but feel free to challange me ..

Regards

>


come to onrampbbs.com and take a stab in any of the games. Try Game A or B since they have just started. The last scripter we had in game B lasted less than one day. This isn't my system. I don't play on my own since that would raise eyebrows. And that I don't need.

As for raising 35 mil. A Team of 5 might be able to do this. But I see, on a daily basis, single individuals doing this. On a 2 hour game, that is still impossible unless they ran something that mapped out the ports previously. I may raise an eyebrow at 7 mil each that you claim but I know 35 mil for one person is completely out of whack. The game is ruint on the first day of play.

You speak of what some wish. Most just want to play the game to lose themselves for just a little while. The Most are what I hear. Okay, they are quiet but they are mumbling in the background. Usually drowned out by the Minority that just want it their way. A good player plays the cards that are dealt.

The gauntlet is thrown



Visit slbbs.com port 2002 for a rip roaring game of TW where you also have to battle the Klingons, Romulans, Orians and the Borg.

quote:
As for raising 35 mil. A Team of 5 might be able to do this. But I see, on a daily basis, single individuals doing this. On a 2 hour game, that is still impossible unless they ran something that mapped out the ports previously. I may raise an eyebrow at 7 mil each that you claim but I know 35 mil for one person is completely out of whack. The game is ruint on the first day of play.


It still sounds like you think ZTM gives you port info. It doesn't. Scripts don't help you get more money for your turns, either. In fact, you probably get less because you can almost certainly do better with a calculator and a notepad. But if you have more turns than you have time, you use a script. It only makes sense. Setting the time limit too low doesn't prove anything about scripters.

BTW, somebody's exaggerating day one income I think. If everyone trades in their Mercs for Scouts and gives the money to the lead red for planet busting, it takes about 600-700 turns to get the first player in colts. Only after that do you max out at (rule of thumb) a million credits per 100 turns. On day one all your income is invested in getting your teammates up to speed. And not everyone on the corp will be making that much – you need one supporting blue for every two reds, and you probably want at least one blue building planets.

while(!employed) { hack; hack; hack; }

quote:
come to onrampbbs.com and take a stab in any of the games. Try Game A or B since they have just started. The last scripter we had in game B lasted less than one day. This isn't my system. I don't play on my own since that would raise eyebrows. And that I don't need.


I'll play on sharon's board .. it's fair ..
I need to try to see if she still has my account settings .. my name no longer works .. still .. she's not on a twgs .. she's sill on the old door version isnt she? ..
I'll give it a go .. that's my old local heh .. I say local .. it was the nearest bbs I could dial into ..

Regards

<<Doctor Who>>

quote:
quote:
As for raising 35 mil. A Team of 5 might be able to do this. But I see, on a daily basis, single individuals doing this. On a 2 hour game, that is still impossible unless they ran something that mapped out the ports previously.


It still sounds like you think ZTM gives you port info. It doesn't.


Yea .. i think he def feels strongly about this .. I'me in this other game of his .. 2k turns .. if someone made more than 20 mil in that game then they are using a bug .. not a script ..

quote:
Scripts don't help you get more money for your turns, either. In fact, you probably get less because you can almost certainly do better with a calculator and a notepad.


Errrr .. My scripts do the same as what you do with a calculator and notepad ..

quote:
if you have more turns than you have time, you use a script. It only makes sense. Setting the time limit too low doesn't prove anything about scripters.

BTW, somebody's exaggerating day one income I think. If everyone trades in their Mercs for Scouts and gives the money to the lead red for planet busting, it takes about 600-700 turns to get the first player in colts. Only after that do you max out at (rule of thumb) a million credits per 100 turns. On day one all your income is invested in getting your teammates up to speed. And not everyone on the corp will be making that much – you need one supporting blue for every two reds, and you probably want at least one blue building planets.


your a bit off on your numbers .. true day one you'll PROBABLY not get everyone maxed .. depends on settings! and luck.. 100%rob/steal your looking at what 2 days to get everything running smoothly .. 30% all reds can be there in one day (if a good day) ..



<<Doctor Who>>

quote:
I'll play on sharon's board .. it's fair ..
I need to try to see if she still has my account settings .. my name no longer works .. still .. she's not on a twgs .. she's sill on the old door version isnt she? ..
I'll give it a go .. that's my old local heh .. I say local .. it was the nearest bbs I could dial into ..


She has no idea how to edit in gold games .. None of the gold planets actually work correctly .. I'me also getting a nice connection there !!! ..
i'll be playing game A .. as B isnt edited properly


Pinging rampbbs.com [207.254.211.85] with 32 bytes of data:

Reply from 207.254.211.85: bytes=32 time=511ms TTL=109
Request timed out.
Request timed out.
Request timed out.

<<Doctor Who>>

quote:

She has no idea how to edit in gold games .. None of the gold planets actually work correctly .. I'me also getting a nice connection there !!! ..
i'll be playing game A .. as B isnt edited properly


Pinging rampbbs.com [207.254.211.85] with 32 bytes of data:

Reply from 207.254.211.85: bytes=32 time=511ms TTL=109
Request timed out.
Request timed out.
Request timed out.

>


Sharon never really plays TW and never has. Game B was setup by one of her users and it's not exactly setup correctly. But, as the Gamblers say, you play the cards you are dealt.

Game A is a box stock unit and it's limited for us "Limited" style players. Up until now, all her games have been unlimited except for the bandwidth out. They do play slower and you have to pick your time in correctly. Since there is a BBS attached to the system also, the 16 bit games get in the road. But, I think we all can agree, no matter what, Sharon is a great BBS Style Sysop.



Visit slbbs.com port 2002 for a rip roaring game of TW where you also have to battle the Klingons, Romulans, Orians and the Borg.

I want to clarify a bit about the relationship between settings and scripting. Allow me to group scripting into three basic types. The first type, which I have no issues with, is automation. Let's face it, the game can be tedious. Automation should be integrated with the game, actually, so that anyone could take advantage of it without any special know-how. This kind of scripting is ok as long as turns are used as they are designed to be used. It doesn't matter if a player runs all of his/her turns in 10 minutes or 10 hours because they are always running the same number of turns per day.

The second type is reactive scripting. Reactive scripts are those scripts that listen for an event and respond automatically. This allows the scripter to gain an advantage in reaction time, and that's not something that the game is designed to offset. Time limits can be used to decrease the effects of this kind of scripting, but only to a limited degree.

The third type is polling in a way that provides information that the game never intended for a player to have access to. The best example of this is the recent use of CIM for hunting players. Scripts can pull and analyze data so quickly that it allows the scripter to see patterns in the data and therefore obtain more information than was intended. I am not aware of any current setting that really addresses this problem.

As for the ability of a player to generate massive amounts of cash in a given day, I don't know if that's really a problem with scripts. If the script is just automating normal gameplay, then it's really an issue of how many turns are in the game. Unlimited turn games obviously give a huge advantage to this kind of scripter. In a shorter turn game, a scripter can run the turns more quickly, but at the end of the day they won't make more than a manual player who runs the same number of turns. That's what I mean by using settings to address the scripting problems. Of course, I'm not referring here to the other two types of scripting, and I would really like to remove them from the game. But since not everyone agrees with me, it's more likely that I will remove them from a new game, TWv4, and leave TWv3 as it is.

John Pritchett
Epic Interactive Strategy

quote:
Okay .. for some reason I can PARTIALLY understand what you mean about ports .. PARTIALLY ..

My point is that I think this should be handled in one of 2 ways. First, remove the "current statistics" for the ports. This way, you can't see what that port you visited last week currently looks like. This would increase the challenge.

Or, and I think this is a pretty decent idea, add some sort of a "port scanner" device into the game. Limit it to certain ships, etc. Then, using this port scanner, you can get current info on the ports you've visited. Gotta buy it at stardock, costs a little more than the planet scanner, etc. Details could be worked out later... But, then we have an item that at least explains WHY we can get that sort of info...

quote:----Now----
.. lets get rid of grimy .. cause if you cant see ports he cant see ports .. also when you want to goto sector 5000 .. you cant just type in 5000 anymore .. why .. cause it's not adjacent! .. you can only visit adjacent sectors! .. why? .. cause if you type in 5000 and it tells you a path then you'll get warp info!! .. Cheating
and when you are in a sector with a port .. you cant get a port report from it .. why .. you need to dock on it first ..

I think you're missing a little of what I am saying. I'm defending ZTM here, to a degree. Because of the course plotting capabilities of the game, removing ZTM is counterproductive from a CPU/On-line Time standpoint. I think it's going to beat up the server when the users realize they can basically ZTM using the course plotter. This does not, however, mean that I think ZTM and the course plotter should be removed. It would be interesting, however, to see if a course plotter that only plotted KNOWN/VISISTED sectors would work in the game. Just a thought, not an argument to add it.

As for Grimy, I think that's a totally different beast. He can't necessarily "see" the ports... He's that guy in the bar that listens in on everything and remembers what he heard.. Information trading is big business... No harm in having him in the game... He's wrong sometimes... Or, rather, he's right, but that person may have visited elsewhere...

quote:It sounds to me like maybee some of you guys actually dont want to play tradewars and you just dont know it!

Nah, I thoroughly enjoy the game as-is... Just looking towards the future...

--------------------------
~~ XenoPhage ~~
--------------------------

quote:
Or, and I think this is a pretty decent idea, add some sort of a "port scanner" device into the game. Limit it to certain ships, etc. Then, using this port scanner, you can get current info on the ports you've visited. Gotta buy it at stardock, costs a little more than the planet scanner, etc. Details could be worked out later... But, then we have an item that at least explains WHY we can get that sort of info...


Or only show current info for ports you have a fighter over.

As for ZTM, you could eliminate course plotting and not show the course your autopilot is going to take. As you warp along it could say "Next Sector: ####" so you could scan for danger.

ZTM is a waste of time and a stupid waste of CPU cycles on the server. Eliminate it, enshrine it as a feature, I don't care. I'll still play, and I'll still beat all of you who are whining about it.

Suddenly you're Busted!

I know what you all are thinking - "Man, I wish someone we never heard of who only has two posts would jump in and share his thoughts on this controversial topic". So here goes -

Reading thru this discussion I've formulated what I think my opinion on helpers is. I think they are great for mundane tasks, but unethical when used to improve reaction time (like planet dropping or ptorping, or even attacking an online user). I don't like that the speed of someone's CPU (does anyone have a CPU too slow to run TW these days?) or size of their ping (sounds funnier than it is) should be a factor in their success TWaring. I'm still not sure how I feel about ZTM, I think you should have to explore, but if anyone else in the game is using it, you're screwed if you don't.

So here's my suggestion (you're thinking - "oh good, the newbie is giving us advice"). Make a no-camping rule. If you're online, you can't sit in one sector for more than, say, 60 seconds. If you do, you're booted for an hour (or you incur some penalty to keep you from just being able to log right back in). This will discourage (but not eliminate) ZTM, planet dropping scripts, ptorping scripts, etc... Sure, all you need is a new script that will stop doing ZTM every 59 seconds, move one sector, move back, resume ZTM. But the point is that you just spent at least 4 turns doing "zero" turn mapping. If you wanna keep a bot online to defend your sector 24/7 - do it! But it'll cost you turns every 60 seconds. Assuming I can still multiply in my head, you'll be burning 240 turns every hour, which in a 1000 turn game is not trivial. You'd need 100% of size player's turns every day to camp 24/7. Sure, you're corporate sector would be safe, but that's all you'd be able to do.