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 The lowly Sentinel 
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Immortal Op

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Unread post Re: The lowly Sentinel
John Pritchett wrote:
I'm not going to read through all of this. There's just too much here. But I do want to say that, as so often is the case, this entire debate is predicated on the false assumption that I'm changing gameplay. I'm not. I'm recognizing that the Sentinel is a ship that can be used in "creative" ways, and not everyone likes that it can be used that way.

There's no sense in arguing about it. You can help me better achieve my goal, but arguing against my goal is pointless.

Can I just macro that point? That would save me a ton of time...



In twgs 2 beta the Tholian does not defend a corperate planet as it should. Doesnt matter if a player is onboard it, live or offline or not occupied by a player.

In the HVS version multiple Tholian Sentinals can be placed in a sector and will defend it reguardless if they are occupied.

The odds of 4:1 defence and a 0.8:1 offence. These can be changed in tedit, but a low offencive odds prevents "creative" useage. It does need higher fighter numbers and higher corbermite levels, most of all please fix it so it defends reguardless of being occupied.

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Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:56 am
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Unread post Re: The lowly Sentinel
Cruncher wrote:
John Pritchett wrote:
So in other words, there's no value whatsoever in defending a planet until it reaches a certain level? And this is why a Sentinel has no value as an early base defender, because nobody wants to defend low level planets. So if that's the case, then the problem is not so much that the Sentinel isn't effective as a base defender, the problem is that the game as it's currently played doesn't favor defensive positions early on. Resources are so cheap that there's no disincentive for throwing a 40K cr Photon on a player every hour. That certainly makes sense. At the pace games are played today, I think it's probably just a fact that an early-game ship like the Sentinel is obsolete. Changing that would involve slowing the game down a bit as much as making changers to the Sentinel.

I'll continue to look at the bigger picture on that. If it's not possible to restore the Sentinel to its intended role, if that role is just no longer needed, then the next best thing is to establish its role and make sure it's not overpowering or ineffective in its stock state. And that should be easy enough to do.



Yeah, like I said earlier, it's just a give a-way that you do have young citadels in process. We find other means of early defenses. In mostly stock settings because this ship stock carries more shields than most, we just use it in a turns game to buy shields on our L5's when we move them over zero ports to save a turn here and there.

It really is obsolete.


The stock version is obsolete, not the edited versions.

I have to disagree with Stoneslinger on having unoccupied ships defending planets. It would be too simple to drop 5-10 or more Sentinels in sector to prevent invasions. In that event the invading corp would attempt a sector overload. The HVS version possibly explains why I ran into a player a few years ago that had 3-4 defenders in each base, and didn't xport into any of them when I was invading.

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Wed Dec 22, 2010 12:13 pm
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Unread post Re: The lowly Sentinel
Promethius wrote:

The stock version is obsolete, not the edited versions.

I have to disagree with Stoneslinger on having unoccupied ships defending planets. It would be too simple to drop 5-10 or more Sentinels in sector to prevent invasions. In that event the invading corp would attempt a sector overload. The HVS version possibly explains why I ran into a player a few years ago that had 3-4 defenders in each base, and didn't xport into any of them when I was invading.


Either way manned or unmanned the tholian does not do what it should. If it worked when manned that would be usefull. I do agree it results in sectors with 4-5 Tholian Sentinals set for defence, but as long as the ship per sector maximum functions it shouldnt be a problem. Besides whats wrong with toasting 4-5 enemy ships on the way to destroy/capture thier planets.

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Fri Dec 24, 2010 8:25 am
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Unread post Re: The lowly Sentinel
There is no "ship per sector" max.

If you give people the ability to use unmanned sentinels
for protection, then you make them too powerful.

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Fri Dec 24, 2010 8:58 am
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Unread post Re: The lowly Sentinel
Stoneslinger wrote:
Promethius wrote:

The stock version is obsolete, not the edited versions.

I have to disagree with Stoneslinger on having unoccupied ships defending planets. It would be too simple to drop 5-10 or more Sentinels in sector to prevent invasions. In that event the invading corp would attempt a sector overload. The HVS version possibly explains why I ran into a player a few years ago that had 3-4 defenders in each base, and didn't xport into any of them when I was invading.


Either way manned or unmanned the tholian does not do what it should. If it worked when manned that would be usefull. I do agree it results in sectors with 4-5 Tholian Sentinals set for defence, but as long as the ship per sector maximum functions it shouldnt be a problem. Besides whats wrong with toasting 4-5 enemy ships on the way to destroy/capture thier planets.


As Sing noted there is no maximum amount of ships per sector - at least that I have ever encountered. Edited defender ships sometimes are setup with a baseline defense of 8 and up to 400k figs and 16k shields. A single defender eats resources up quickly. Multiply that by the number of ships I could put there in an unlimited game and you will take a very long time to invade. A sector overload prior to extern would be much more efficient.

Defender ships must be setup to be capable of taking several waves prior to podding. If manned then you can almost count on a reloader running from a planet if the defender can land. If it can't land, then you need to take out the sector fighters. Defender ships function as intended when they are edited correctly vs the other ships in the game.

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Fri Dec 24, 2010 2:51 pm
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Unread post Re: The lowly Sentinel
Unoccupied ships shouldn't have a defender bonus but.... You would just ignore any of those empty ships, no matter how many there are in the sector, they cannot stop you from landing and invading a planet (unless one is occupied) or moving into a deeper sector.

H

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Fri Dec 24, 2010 6:45 pm
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Unread post Re: The lowly Sentinel
Singularity wrote:
There is no "ship per sector" max.

If you give people the ability to use unmanned sentinels
for protection, then you make them too powerful.


My mistake, all HVS/Mbbs and the old door versions had ship max per sector config option, use to be right under max number of planets per sector. Maybe JP can add it back in.
As far as the tholian goes it will (or should) only defend corperate planets, if a corperate planet is not in the sector it wont react.

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Unread post Re: The lowly Sentinel
The great thing about a ship max is that I can
keep you out of a sector by maxing it's ships.

Oh wait... that's not the way it's supposed to work.

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Sun Dec 26, 2010 7:34 pm
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Unread post Re: The lowly Sentinel
Stoneslinger wrote:
My mistake, all HVS/Mbbs and the old door versions had ship max per sector config option, use to be right under max number of planets per sector. Maybe JP can add it back in.


its still there as a bang settings but its about Max ships in FED space (manned).thats never changed...

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Sun Dec 26, 2010 8:25 pm
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Unread post Re: The lowly Sentinel
Max ships at bang refers to the max ships in the universe.
It's a hard limit, and can be used in a buyout to lock people
out of the game.

Max ships in fed is a t-edit option. That is a soft limit, you
get towed at extern if you're logged out and over that limit.

Neither concept can be applied to sector defense. If it only
matters at extern, then it doesn't really matter. If it doesn't
apply to people logged in, then it doesn't really apply.

Soft limits are easily bypassed. Hard limits are easily abused.

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Sun Dec 26, 2010 8:29 pm
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Unread post Re: The lowly Sentinel
Singularity wrote:
Max ships at bang refers to the max ships in the universe.
It's a hard limit, and can be used in a buyout to lock people
out of the game.

Max ships in fed is a t-edit option. That is a soft limit, you
get towed at extern if you're logged out and over that limit.

Neither concept can be applied to sector defense. If it only
matters at extern, then it doesn't really matter. If it doesn't
apply to people logged in, then it doesn't really apply.

Soft limits are easily bypassed. Hard limits are easily abused.


I wonder if the Sentinal could be made to do the intended corperate planet defence, but have a function added that it can be the one and only Tholian in any given sector, rather than the ship max per sector.

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Unread post Re: The lowly Sentinel
Stoneslinger wrote:
I wonder if the Sentinal could be made to do the intended corperate planet defence, but have a function added that it can be the one and only Tholian in any given sector, rather than the ship max per sector.


Sure, require the ship to be occupied. That's
the way it is now.

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Mon Dec 27, 2010 7:59 pm
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Unread post Re: The lowly Sentinel
Singularity wrote:
Stoneslinger wrote:
I wonder if the Sentinal could be made to do the intended corperate planet defence, but have a function added that it can be the one and only Tholian in any given sector, rather than the ship max per sector.


Sure, require the ship to be occupied. That's
the way it is now.



Yes but it will not stop some one landing on a corperate planet. You can be onbard it (or empty) and the attacker can just land on the planet. It will not stop them first and force the attacker to destroy the Tholian Sentinal before landing. Atleast in the build I have. I have tested this several times, you do get the defence odds if the attacker chooses to attack it first before landing.

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Unread post Re: The lowly Sentinel
Stoneslinger wrote:
Yes but it will not stop some one landing on a corperate planet. You can be onbard it (or empty) and the attacker can just land on the planet. It will not stop them first and force the attacker to destroy the Tholian Sentinal before landing. Atleast in the build I have. I have tested this several times, you do get the defence odds if the attacker chooses to attack it first before landing.


Uhm, no, that isn't the way it works.

Right now if you're in the sentinel, sitting in the sector,
you prevent people from landing on the planet until they
blow you up. You protect all planets in the sector that
your corp owns. This is true whether you're in a sentinel
or not. You can sit in a colt, and it will still block entry.

For the bonus to work, the sentinel needs to be corp and
the planets need to be corp. Then you get a message "Xxx
blocks your attempt to land." and you have to blow them
up before you can land, and the sentinel gets the 4x
gbonus odds.

But you have to be in the sector, not on the planet, for
this to work. That's a good thing tho, it keeps the ship
balanced.

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Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:41 am
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Unread post Re: The lowly Sentinel
Stoneslinger wrote:
Singularity wrote:
Stoneslinger wrote:
I wonder if the Sentinal could be made to do the intended corperate planet defence, but have a function added that it can be the one and only Tholian in any given sector, rather than the ship max per sector.


Sure, require the ship to be occupied. That's
the way it is now.



Yes but it will not stop some one landing on a corperate planet. You can be onbard it (or empty) and the attacker can just land on the planet. It will not stop them first and force the attacker to destroy the Tholian Sentinal before landing. Atleast in the build I have. I have tested this several times, you do get the defence odds if the attacker chooses to attack it first before landing.


If you can land on an enemy (corp or personal) planet w/o first destroying the enemy player that is in the sector, then that is a bug. I don't have the beta versions so I cannot test the changes that have been made. (Yes, I could log into a beta server, but that is a pain for testing purposes).

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