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Unread post Re: New Hoster
Cruncher wrote:
Until flash client users "have" the tools to compete against telnet players, I'd like a way to give them their own "space" to play and learn.

The tools are already out there. I use one called AutoHotKey to interact with a flash based game on Facebook. Sure, it would take a while to develop the level of automation we have with Mombot and TWX, but it could be done if someone wanted to spend the time.

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Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:53 pm
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Unread post Re: New Hoster
Micro wrote:
Cruncher wrote:
Until flash client users "have" the tools to compete against telnet players, I'd like a way to give them their own "space" to play and learn.

The tools are already out there. I use one called AutoHotKey to interact with a flash based game on Facebook. Sure, it would take a while to develop the level of automation we have with Mombot and TWX, but it could be done if someone wanted to spend the time.


Thank you! Thank you! Maybe with two of us telling her this she'll understand. I understand that if JP is trying to draw a new audience why he would take the time to do this, but Cruncher keeps saying she wants to level the playing field for new and veteran players. That just isn't going to happen by attempting to eliminate players that script. Why? Because it's impossible to stop scripting when it's a web based program.


Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:23 pm
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Unread post Re: New Hoster
Big D wrote:
Micro wrote:
Cruncher wrote:
Until flash client users "have" the tools to compete against telnet players, I'd like a way to give them their own "space" to play and learn.

The tools are already out there. I use one called AutoHotKey to interact with a flash based game on Facebook. Sure, it would take a while to develop the level of automation we have with Mombot and TWX, but it could be done if someone wanted to spend the time.


Thank you! Thank you! Maybe with two of us telling her this she'll understand. I understand that if JP is trying to draw a new audience why he would take the time to do this, but Cruncher keeps saying she wants to level the playing field for new and veteran players. That just isn't going to happen by attempting to eliminate players that script. Why? Because it's impossible to stop scripting when it's a web based program.


When I say "tools", I mean a compete working flash client helper script pack. I never said anything about leveling the playing field, just giving players time to get up to speed.

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Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:58 pm
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Unread post Re: New Hoster
If you really wanted to restrict users to a particular client, the best way to do it might be with a server-side proxy that will communicate only with that client. The connection between the proxy and the client could be binary instead of text, encrypted, etc. It would eventually be reverse-engineered, but I don't think there are many players who possess both the ability to do that and the personality to go through all that effort to beat up on newbies.

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Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:17 pm
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Unread post Re: New Hoster
Mongoose wrote:
If you really wanted to restrict users to a particular client, the best way to do it might be with a server-side proxy that will communicate only with that client. The connection between the proxy and the client could be binary instead of text, encrypted, etc. It would eventually be reverse-engineered, but I don't think there are many players who possess both the ability to do that and the personality to go through all that effort to beat up on newbies.


It sounds like it is possible, but it will take a lot of effort, and isn't hack proof.

I just had to ask what the capabilities were since the flash client operates on a different port along with an http port. I need to open these ports on my router to enable the flash client interface. I've been busy with finals week, and I have one more program to finish that's due on Wed.

Plus I wanted to prepare the games, if I could for the influx. The beta server had quite a few players logging in to test the flash client. I don't want this to turn out to be so many moths to the flames, if you know what I mean.

I think your edit will be perfect for flash users, until we or they develop some sort of flash helper/script pack, low turn, time limit games will be best for these players. I don't want to cause anyone to suffer from carpal tunnel syndrome. :)

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Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:47 pm
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Unread post Re: New Hoster
I remember working with Goosemoose to get jtwat available for his board and discussing how to lock it down so that people had to use that helper, also with the promise of an even playing field. Yes, there are ways to lock it down to all but the most technical player, but as any multiplayer game on the Internet proves, there will be ways to get around it for the determined cheat.

I've always been partial to the idea of creating a robust set of scripts and server-side helper functionality right on the game server itself, so that every player gets the same speed and automation advantages. I just completed a prototype of using a pure HTML 5 "terminal" (Gate One) with tw 3.09 and dosemu, which is interesting as it processes all terminal renderings server-side then transmits the new display via a websocket. Combine this with either its built-in expect-style scripting engine or Weapon M's internals, and I think you'd have a very attractive solution with a lot of room to grow.

Of course, another possible answer is maybe tw2002 just isn't well suited for multiple players at once, so a shift back to its asynchronous multiplayer roots would be a better long-term strategy...


Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:34 pm
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Unread post Re: New Hoster
mrdon wrote:
I've always been partial to the idea of creating a robust set of scripts and server-side helper functionality right on the game server itself, so that every player gets the same speed and automation advantages...


Actually, have you downloaded the latest version, it does have server side delay settings. Everyone starts with a base of 150ms is default, you can set it higher or lower if you wish. Lower however may cause the game to become unstable.

Ship movement is another equalizer. Default is 1/3 s delay. I prefer a set 250ms delay - otherwise known as no delay, but you can make that move faster as well.

All sorts of settings for different aspects of the game. For an example, I'm not a huge fan of using a planet as a deadly weapon, so on my server I have the planet movement set to 5 s. Photon delay settings, e-probe delay settings.

At the game menu you can type S to see what settings the sysop has chosen for any particular game or * for even more detail settings.

JP did a great job with this one, so no matter how fast the processors or the connection speed, everyone gets to play at nearly the same pace.

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Classic Style Games Here:
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Web page from 1990's: https://web.archive.org/web/20170103155645/http://tradewars.fament.com/Cruncher/tradewar.htm
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Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:59 pm
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Unread post Re: New Hoster
Quote:
JP did a great job with this one, so no matter how fast the processors or the connection speed, everyone gets to play at nearly the same pace.


I was more referring to reaction speed. If the script is running on the server, it will always respond quicker than a player with even a very fast ping.

As for delays, I can understand the theory, but in practice, I've found them to be somewhat annoying. It feels to me that Tradewars should take a cue from something like Minecraft that is able to absorb so many different playing styles. For scripting pvp matches, no delays and multiplayer, but for causal players, I think asynchronous multiplayer (like the days of old) is preferrable as there is again no longer a need for delays and scripts are naturally focused on player automatation, not intense pvp battles.


Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:10 am
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Unread post Re: New Hoster
Mongoose wrote:
If you really wanted to restrict users to a particular client, the best way to do it might be with a server-side proxy that will communicate only with that client. The connection between the proxy and the client could be binary instead of text, encrypted, etc. It would eventually be reverse-engineered, but I don't think there are many players who possess both the ability to do that and the personality to go through all that effort to beat up on newbies.

It would be hard to break, unless someone got a hold of the server's private key. The client would also have to monitor all running processes for scripting/cheat programs and block keyboard/mouse input that isn't from a driver, etc...

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Website: http://www.microblaster.net
TWGS2.20b/TW3.34: telnet://twgs.microblaster.net:2002

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Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:15 am
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Unread post Re: New Hoster
Big D wrote:
Thank you! Thank you! Maybe with two of us telling her this she'll understand. I understand that if JP is trying to draw a new audience why he would take the time to do this, but Cruncher keeps saying she wants to level the playing field for new and veteran players. That just isn't going to happen by attempting to eliminate players that script. Why? Because it's impossible to stop scripting when it's a web based program.

You know how much I hate agreeing with you. :shock: I almost didn't post that. :roll:

It also doesn't seem like it would be that hard to create a telnet proxy (of sorts) that could connect TWX to simulated keyboard tied to the flash client's window and feeding text back from the text box it is using. Both these objects are easily accessible without and anti-cheat engine running. Players could be running Mombot on the flash client within a week.

I would also like yo point out that the flash client isn't intended to block scripting. It is just intended as a quick way to let players get into the game without downloading a telnet client or helper. It could be a good way for a new host to attract players. (There, I pulled the thread back on topic) :lol:

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Last edited by Micro on Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:34 am, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:19 am
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Unread post Re: New Hoster
Quote:
It would be hard to break, unless someone got a hold of the server's private key. The client would also have to monitor all running processes for scripting/cheat programs and block keyboard/mouse input that isn't from a driver, etc...


Actually, you wouldn't even need that key. The client would have to have the code to unencrypt and encrypt the text stream, so all you have to do is decompile the client. For Java and even Flash I believe, it isn't hard at all. As I said before, I just don't think you could have the same game work for both casual and multiplayer players.


Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:27 am
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Unread post Re: New Hoster
mrdon wrote:

Of course, another possible answer is maybe tw2002 just isn't well suited for multiple players at once, so a shift back to its asynchronous multiplayer roots would be a better long-term strategy...


You can do that with the new release as well. You can set the game to single player, single corp, multi-player and closed. And you can set each of these modes on a time table.

Look at the settings under access manager. < B >

One game I have running emulates the early tournament games we played on World Groups MBBS. The game closes every night for 15 minutes, starting at 11:55 pm and reopening at 12:10 am, and everyone gets towed, no one is safe to park in fed space during extern.

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Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:44 am
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Unread post Re: New Hoster
Cruncher wrote:
You can do that with the new release as well. You can set the game to single player, single corp, multi-player and closed. And you can set each of these modes on a time table.


Actually there's a bug in these options. You might want to do some debugging in that area as well.


Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:17 am
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Unread post Re: New Hoster
Quote:
You can do that with the new release as well. You can set the game to single player, single corp, multi-player and closed. And you can set each of these modes on a time table.


Great! If you can set a game to be only one player at a time, then why bother with any efforts to "even the playing field" and just embrace the brutal nature of real-time pvp? For casual players, they can play turn-based, which can be just as competitive only in a more strategic way. I'm not saying that efforts to make games that are easier for new players isn't good, but you'll never have a game where a new player is competitive with a seasoned pro. Therefore, I think the focus should be on optimizing the game for the two types (are there more?) of players - casual (tur-based) and real-time pvp, but in doing so, recognize the same game instance cannot accomodate both.


Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:13 pm
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Unread post Re: New Hoster
mrdon wrote:
Therefore, I think the focus should be on optimizing the game for the two types (are there more?) of players - casual (tur-based) and real-time pvp, but in doing so, recognize the same game instance cannot accomodate both.



Actually, it can accommodate both. Say you enjoy the social aspect of chatting it up with other players on fed com, but don't care for the 1-1 pvp combat. You can set the game up to be muliti-player for a few hours in the evening when most people play, and single player for the rest of the night and day. It's very flexible this way.

mrdon, do you have a server running now? Or if you interested in this set-up I can bang a game with these settings.

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Classic Style Games Here:
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Web page from 1990's: https://web.archive.org/web/20170103155645/http://tradewars.fament.com/Cruncher/tradewar.htm
Blog with current server info: http://cruncherstw.blogspot.com
Discord: https://discord.gg/4dja5Z8
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Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:53 pm
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